Ascot Forum
First Generation Ascots => Tech Section => Topic started by: johnnymot1 on October 01, 2014, 02:37:32 pm
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Can you guys remind me if a "timing chain tension-er in need of adjustment" on a non running FT500 is a deal breaker? I have a few, but honestly have not had time to re-educate myself if the motors are interference and if timing chain slack or jumping time is bad news for the valves and pistons?
A guy has one for sale locally for $750 obo, and states that is why it's not running. Gotta love all those "all it takes to get it running is....." ads. I'm sorta interested, but it would have to be a good deal to add to my hoarding collection of FT500s I've been amassing.
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To help clarify, I talked to the bikes owner and he said he was riding and heard a "tunk".... and the bike quite running. It may be a moot point, but to me any "clunk, tink, chank" etc or similar "metalic" sound and the engine stopping, is certainly not a good sign. What to you guys think....Broken chain, jumped timing, and what sort of damage would I be looking at. What do you think a fair price is assuming the engine top end may be toast? I am interested in the rest of the bike for parts and it does have a clean title.
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Sounds like he's asking about 2 to 3 times what I'd be willing to pay for a bike that went "thunk" & hasn't run since.
All it's really worth is a Titled frame & the body parts. You know what I mean.
See if the engine rotates. Take a battery with you & see if the starter turns the engine. If it rotates... It might start with some attention. If it doesn't rotate, the engine is probably only worth the starter assembly.
J.
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Those links are just what the fork doctor ordered! Thanks. That clears up a bit of the "voodoo" with some of the swaps I've been seeing of any number of different bike projects as of late. I'm expanding my parts bike ads/search to denver and vegas, as I sit in between, so hopefully they'll produce.
In the meantime I'm giving the FT500 seller a few days and see how fate works on the FT with the "timing chain slack"...A co worker volunteered to pick it up, which ups the ease and motivation for me if the price is right!
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Fork swaps are becoming so common now, that All Balls makes several swap bearings. The races fit the frame, while the bearings are sized to match the donor steering stem. Steering stem length is usually the key issue. Often the original steering stem from the bike will be removed & pressed into the new triple clamp.
If you find a first gen CBR600 Hurricane, you won't have to worry about any of that stuff. The parts fit into the Ascot like they were designed for it.
Good luck
J.
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Can you guys remind me if a "timing chain tension-er in need of adjustment" on a non running FT500 is a deal breaker?
A guy has one for sale locally for $750 obo, and states that is why it's not running. Gotta love all those "all it takes to get it running is....." ads.
;D ;D It generally means "It quit running and I have absolutely no clue what is wrong".
For what it's worth, the FT timing chain tension-er is self adjusting.
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As Scottly said, the timing chain tensioner is sprung to adjust on it's own- If I were you I'd grab that bike up, even if there's internAl issues you will have another bike you can get parts from.
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I made my offer a day ago, and letting him think about it. I do have a running motor in a bent ft500 frame waiting to go in. Hopefully I will get an agreement and pick it up this weekend. I feel $400 is a fair offer.....hope he does as well.
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Fingers crossed for ya! :)
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Sounds like a fair offer to me.
Good luck
J.
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The little non-running ascot is in transit back to me as we speak. The seller was a good guy, and we agreed on the deal, and I sent my trailer with a friend of mine heading the sellers way to pick up. For me, when a bike is not running, the more interested I am in getting it back up and going again, as evidenced by the many sitting in my various storage places I have waiting to be brought back to life.
It should be interesting to see exactly what the "thunk" was once I start to investigate. The rest of the bike is all original, and one of my running motors awaits from my ascot hoarding/parts bikes collection if needed. I may be the unofficial ascot king of Utah, but I love the FT500s!
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Good for you. I'll bet that Utah bikes are in pretty good condition as far as rust & exposure to the elements.
J.
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YES! I kinda had a feeling you'd end up with it, haha!
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Congrats! ;D
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Like a neighbor who rolled by the other day while I was surveying 3 bikes on my trailer in various pieces awaiting resurrection said "you have a problem don't you, me too" and then the obligatory touching moment of shared sentiment of "there are worse things to spend your money on". I do love em though, and when you look at what we get compared to what a SR500 is commanding these days, these things are good deals.
That same neighbor is the "enabler" who is bringing it back home this evening. It should be interesting to investigate and find out what the "chink" and non running issue is. Now I have to stop speed dating and make some commitments to some of these machines! I'll update on the exact issue of the new on on the coming days for posterity's sake.
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All right. The FT500 orphan made it home to join it's five new siblings. It is my typical neglected FT500 adoptee, and has lived a rough 9600 mile life from sitting in a basement for years that led to a hap hazard gas tank coat job, to evidence of winter riding in road salt...Not too bad, but corrosion on the rims, fins, and some rust on the engine case bolts. Here's what I've done and my question:
Gave her a nice bath
Pulled the plug, squired oil in the cylinder and then turned over by hand......Good compression
Notice the Champion plug had no gap
Put in new NGK plug and tested....Spark.....
Put in battery....cranked (starter sounded good) and not start
Removed air filter and squirted a bit of staring fluid and ca chunk...tap, tap, tap, she fired.....
Notice the "tap, tap, tap".....It's the cylinder head area.
Obviously I have a no fuel issue to solve, but the tapping.......
I've yet to pull the valve covers (ran out of time tonight), but I'm wondering if it's a loose rocker?
Compression and timing seems to be there.
The other odd thing is that somehow someone "whacked" the tab on the frame that mounts the gear shift lever. It's bent inward and the top of the mounting hole/tab is almost sheared off...No other damage to the chain cover, peg, starter solenoid...nothing to indicate being laid down...The angle you have to achieve to just affect the shift mount tab is pretty incredible. It's repairable, but none the less a mystery.
Pics to follow at some point of the Ascot family and stages of disrepair and rebuild of each. It feels good to be surrounded by them in the garage however.....A random dog showed up today and just stared at them in a state of reverance, animal intuition. It licked my hand, and then licked an Ascot tire. More meaning than ET extending a glowing finger to a human.
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There was another FT on this forum that had the shifter mounting tab broken off. That bike had the shifter mounted on the shift shaft. I can no longer recall who's bike it was.
J.
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My foot is big enough I could most likely go the direct shaft mount route. I may try and build the outter part of the tab/top of it back up too. It's a tough angle to straighten and bend with the engine in the frame, and again it took an incredible angle to just affect that part. Maybe hitting a curb at the just the right angle?
I'm pulling out the factory manual this evening and removing the valve covers to investigate the valves to see if that is the issue. With a little luck, TLC, carb rebuild, fork seals and a few more things hopefully she'll be back on the road again!
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Here is the other Ascot with the broken shifter tab: http://ascot500.com/index.php?topic=318.msg1528#msg1528
I've looked at that area trying to figure out how that tab could be broken off the frame. It sits well inside the frame tubing & looks to be well protected. It must be a square impact right inline with the shift lever shaft that causes that tab to snap off.
J.
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Once I get the correct sized photo, I'll post what mine looks like. The more I look at the damage the more it almost looks like the chain did it. Strange.
I'm still working on the engine noise. I adjusted the valves, but the noise remains, so I also need to go back and make sure I didn't make the mistake of adjusting them on the wrong TDC.
Otherwise, I'm about the adjust the balance chain tension-er which is probably 1600 miles over due. From there I'm also going to make sure I don't have the exhaust rattle. I'm still hoping its minor since the bike fires and runs, and I can get her on the road while working on my other FT projects.
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Are you having trouble posting pictures?
I figured out how to increase the attachment size limits a little while back. You should be able to use any photo of 500KB or less. There is a primer on how to post pictures in the "Testing" section at the bottom of the forum. If all else fails, you can e-mail it to me & I can re-size it.
Good luck
J.
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Hopefully this will show the mangled shifter tab. Artistically speaking if you stare at it long enough it looks like a lizards head. Other than that, not sure how they pulled this off. This "9600" mile bike has proven to be quite the challenge for my mechanical aptitude I thought was pretty good at one time, having done frame off landcruiser restorations and conversions....This bike is making me wonder what happened to those skills!
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It does resemble a chuck-a-walla head. LOL!
This makes two FT Ascots on this board with broken shifter tabs. I wonder how they get broken off? They seem well protected.
J.
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Weird enough given the "raptor" marks on the chain cover in the pic too. It almost looks like a "tool" did the damage or a chain.
I finally got the fuel system swapped and cleaned up and got the bike to idle today. I'm still convinced my "tapping" is in the head at the exhaust valves. The guys on the yahoo forum reminded me I should use a feeler gauge under each tappet when adjusting, so I'm going to get two each of the correct size and readjust the valves.
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Hang in there JM ... that's just Murphy flexin' his law.
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I'm going to be methodical and double check my valve clearances, put a scope in the cylinder and a few other things before pronouncing the motor needed to swap.
My "ear" is evolving to hear a sound like a playing card in a fan blade too...Sort of like the timing chain......... If they are running good, I have no interest. It's these puzzles that keep me obsessed. ???
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Have you heard of the old stethoscope trick?
You take a long screwdriver, ratchet extension, steel rod, etc, or you could use a length of flexible tubing/hose. Then hold one end to your ear & use the other end to probe around the engine while it is making the noise. This will help you locate the area that the noise is coming from.
Good luck
J.
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I ended up just ordering a cheap engine stethoscope to avoid the acrobatics I needed to keep the engine running via the throttle and listening. Since I live in a remote area, I can't run out and pick up a special tool/part etc, so I've learned to be patient. Luckily I have several other FT500 projects, a CB100 project for my wife and a few more which means no down time or waiting when one or the other project requires a special service tool I overlooked or a specific tool I don't have, but need.
Speaking of which I'm going to purchase a motorcycle borescope, because I need it for this, and it will have use on other projects. Does anyone have a favorite or best brand of socpes they've owned or used. Sort of looking for a middle of the road price range. I've ordered two motorcycle specific feeler gauges and two each universal feelers to adjust both the intake and exhaust valves with feelers underneath simutameously to ensure accuracy too.
I'm going to make sure I've exhausted every possible "external" adjustment, investigation etc, then some internal by borescoping the cylinder before I decide to swap this engine out for another. Even if it comes to that, I'll still be obsessed until I find out the source of the noise.
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When you first mentioned the original spark plug had no gap, I wondered if there might be something bouncing around inside the combustion chamber...
I picked up this USB borescope for less than $20 including shipping. It's less than 8mm in diameter. I took a pic of an XR500 piston just to try it out.
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Very cool Scottly, and thanks. I ended up ordering one that is almost identical with a 5.5mm diameter camera, and about the same price. I have an unused laptop that will work perfect with it in the shop.
I hadn't thought about an object in the cylinder being the cause of the no gap on the plug, but it makes sense. Given the overall treatment of the bike, I think it's entirely possible something was dropped in there. I did get my two .004 motorcycle feeler gauges in yesterday and checked the exhaust valve clearance with both under each rocker simultaneously. All was good and those little motorcycle specific feelers are perfect for the job...The old "right tool for the job" adage, very true.
Once my other tools come in (remote area means order, be patient, and wait a week and/or plan ahead to know what you need), I'm going to double check my intake valve adjustment with two feelers at the same time, scope the engine and head and use my nifty stethoscope to get a better idea of the origin of my "noise", before dropping that engine and putting in the other sitting beside it. If I do, I would go into that engine and end up doing a bit of a high performance build on it for my ascot/hurricane hybrid cafe project.
I'm hoping at some point I can "reverse" the tank coating job inside the tank too. It's a pretty nice tank, cosmetically, but he coating job was botched!